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That’s good to know, Dave,
I had been working on the Minicraft 707-320C in Northwest Orient colors, and moving straight to the Roden 720B I’m sure the noticeable difference in engine size led me to believe it was the Roden engines that were oversized, not that the Minicraft engines were undersized.
Mr. Chernoff, I stand corrected on engine type on the standard turbojet-equipped 720s. They used JT3Cs (like early 707-120s) rather than JT4As I mentioned above.
So I’ll be able to use the Roden 720 (presumably JT4As) on a Revell 707-120 fuselage for my Braniff International 707-220s. Sounds like a win to me! Now, what is a good source for JT3Cs for the Roden 720 (United and the Caeser’s Palace charter aircraft (painted up for various rock bands)?
Cheers!
Tom
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…The JT-3Cs that come in the new Roden 707-120 series.
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Another aggravating aspect of the Roden 720B kit, is the decidedly sub optimal method of attaching the horizontal stabilizers.
To that end, i re engineered the mounting point, essentially copying the technique i developed on my KC-135 project….
except in this case, half the size.
Step one involves sourcing two pieces of telescoping K&S Aluminium tubing.
With that done, the larger diameter tubing is passed through the holes for the Tailplane pegs, super glued in place, and trimmed off.
Pretty ugly, huh? Fortunately it all cleans up with a JLC saw, some 180 grit sanding blocks, and regular sanding tools…
With the tailplane bushing in place, work turns to the stabs.
The peg gets shaved off, the butt end of the stab gets block-sanded to remove casting lines and the remains of the stub, and a hole is drilled in the butt end of the stab to take a “spindle” made from the smaller piece of tubing.
With the spindle installed without glue, there follows a interval of test fitting, bending, and re-checking of the fit, making sure the spindle is concentric with the bushing, while establishing and maintaining the proper dihedral.
This is almost exactly the same principle used on my 727 with the added complexities of sweepback and dihedral of the tailplane-fuselage juncture.
You can see in the photo below the difference between the stock Roden tailplane (right) versus my modified tailplane (left)..
Another benefit of this tailplane extension, is it gets taken down in thickness through sanding and this drastically reduces the width and depth of the clumsy Roden panel lines.
So, this is where matters stand today…
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With the tailplane installation figured out, it is finally time to mate the wings to the fuselage.
Always a significant milestone in any aircraft build.
I installed the left wing first using a combination of Tamiya White Cap cement (which the jury is still definitely out on), and Tamiya Extra Thin.
Let that dry while i painted the DC-8 tail, then came back and glued on the right wing.
There’s no small amount of angst with this step. You try and try to get the wings on at the same angle on both sides, but you can’t do anything else until the glue is dried…
And so now, as they say in the movies…. we wait.
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..And here is where matters stand after 2 1/2 rounds of filling and sanding the wing-fuselage joint.
The kit does not possess Zvezda-like fit.
The lower right hand fillet on the fuselage is the worst offender, requiring lots of block sanding with 150 grit to bring the cross section into the same ball park as the adjacent wing.
The filling was started off with Mr Surfacer 1000, since it flows well into cracks, followed by a round of Mr Dissolved Putty.
The first layers of filler were taken down with a moistened Q-Tip; subsequent rounds of filler were removed with sanding and elbow grease.
There are weird ripples and undulations in the upper fillet radius itself, resulting in a weird-looking pattern of sanded filler.
Finally, the reconstruction work on the stabilizers is done, and all that remains is rescribing new surface detail…
That is all for now. Thanks for shopping.
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So, while i wait for my DC-8 decals to arrive, i decided to re focus my efforts on this…
In addition to photos, i am also borrowing heavily from the Flying Colors decal sheet for Northwest 707s, mainly to dial in the width of the cabin window cheat line.
I start by cutting a cheatline from tape, so i can set it at the proper height and check symmetry from left to right sides. I also make it as straight as i can.
Once the cheatline position is set, i then backfill with more tape to minimize overspray.
Then…. i let fly (pun intended) with the decanted Tamiya White Surface Primer.
The tape then gets removed, and when dry, i wet sand the white solar cap to eliminate the ridge where the blue is gonna go.
Finally… since i could, i got started on painting the radome…
Since the fin cap is gonna require multiple iterations of filling and sanding, i will next proceed with the blue cheatline, as opposed to the red tail like i did with my DC-8.
Watch this space….
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It’s looking good, Dave! Very excited to see the progress you make with the blue cheatline, red tail and bare metal belly and wings!
Cheers!
Tom
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Thanks Tom.
Since i took that round of photos yesterday, i masked off and painted the white frames that go around the windshield. With that out of the way i can now mask and paint the dark blue cheatline.
-d-
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I just reviewed by build photos of the DC-8 and i will repeat the same process of painting the cheatline; prime first, then mask and spray the nose first and then work my way aft.
-d-
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Posts: 123Location: Salt Lake CityOccupation: Retired. Twice: Civilian HR manager and US Army officerCan you please share the reason why you use decanted Tamiya White Surface Primer?
I use Tamiya White Liquid Primer thinned 1:1 with MLT and have been very pleased with that combo. But I am always looking for new techniques and want to learn more about the benefits, if any, of using the decanted version.
Your NWA DC-8 and 707 builds are among the cleanest I’ve seen.
Only flew on NWA one time, on a 747 from Tokyo to Manila round trip while in the US Army in ‘92 or ‘93.
Robert V. Leonard
Looking good, thanks for the project update!
@ad-4n not sure how Dave does it, but I decant the Tamiya Primer and mix with Tamiya Lacquer thinner 50:50 to better control the application and avoid the chalky texture that I sometimes get if I use the rattle can wrong. In short, it’s more forgiving.
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Can you please share the reason why you use decanted Tamiya White Surface Primer?
I use Tamiya White Liquid Primer thinned 1:1 with MLT and have been very pleased with that combo. But I am always looking for new techniques and want to learn more about the benefits, if any, of using the decanted version.
Your NWA DC-8 and 707 builds are among the cleanest I’ve seen.
Only flew on NWA one time, on a 747 from Tokyo to Manila round trip while in the US Army in ‘92 or ‘93.
Hi Robert,
The reasons i use decanted Tamiya primer are many, but the ones i can think of are:
1) Readily available- i can find it anywhere i usually find Tamiya acrylics.
2) Very heavily pigmented, but the grain is very fine. Better covering power than comparable Mr Color white primers.
3) Thins nicely with MLT. Sprays through an Iwata airbrush beautifully (as do all decanted Tamiya AS Spray Bombs…).
4) Does not precipitate out of solution, and not as lumpy as the Tamiya White Surface primer, in the little square bottle.
5) Dries very quickly. Safe to touch in 15 minutes.
6) Wets sands beautifully with 4000 grit Micro Mesh; Does not scratch off the surface the way a typical acrylic paint does.
7) Excellent bonding characteristics. Tamiya tape does not faze it.
8) Inter-Mixable with Tamiya acrylics to make whatever colour you like. e.g., yellow green zinc chromate primer.
9) More control in terns of applying it to the surface, compared to carpet-bombing with a spray can.
I don’t mean to sound hyperbolic, but i think its the best white paint in the business.
-d-
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Left side cheatline masked off, sprayed with Mr Surfacer 1000, allowed to dry then carefully wet sanded with 4000 grit micro mesh.
Based on painful experience, i seem to get better results doing one cheat line at a time, and not rushing to get both done, in one go.
-d-
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Posts: 123Location: Salt Lake CityOccupation: Retired. Twice: Civilian HR manager and US Army officer4) Does not precipitate out of solution, and not as lumpy as the Tamiya White Surface primer, in the little square bottle.
Thanks sincerely for your excellent advice. I agree that Tamiya White Primer is the best.
I’ve not experienced any lumpiness using Tamiya Liquid Primer, in the little square bottles. That might be because I use a Badger small electric paint mixer for two minutes on every bottle or tin I use.
To be honest, I wasn’t sure the Badger mixer was a worthwhile purchase, but someone at my local model club said it transformed his painting. And I have to agree with him. Using it for two minutes on any paint completely mixes the paint way, way better than I could with any stir stick. Add 1:1 MLT and I’m set.
I have a spray can of the Tamiya White Primer I will experiment with decanting in comparison to what I can achieve using the little square bottles.
Robert V. Leonard
Dave this 720 really looks great! And the kit while it has its challenges frankly with the work you have done to me looks like the real plane. Amazing progress!
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Thanks!
It’s a lot of work to get here (just like the VC-10), but i’m satisfied with the shapes in general. The kit is remarkably devoid of surface detail (wings especially), but it’s a better starting point than any other kit out there. The characteristic lobe crease is rather vague but it’s better than nothing.
If you wanna build the infamous 707-138B, this is probably the best place to start; on account of the leading edge mod. You are still looking at a fuselage splice job, however.
Holding out hope that X-Scale will eventually offer a 720 of some kind in their lineup, but we build the models we have; not the ones we want or would like to have.
-d-
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OK. We’re done with the blue.
Started with the nose, then with the tail…
Finally, the main, “straight” parts of the cheatline…
Up next: The Red…
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Looks outstanding, Dave! Northwest jets always look cooler once the red is applied! I can’t wait to see the next photos!
Will you be handpainting the red stripe beneath the windshield like you did on the DC-8 or use decals? Once continuous stripe beneath the windshield panes like Northwest Orient did in the early 1960s through 1968 or the “darts” beneath the side window panes like from 1968 onward? The real-life photos you show in “Lay-up 001” and “Lay-up 003” from a few days ago depict the two versions.
Boeing delivered the first nine 720s to Northwest Orient in 1961 (plus four more to TWA that were built to Northwest’s specifications – not sure if TWA returned them back to Northwest Orient when they were finished with them) and the final four in late 1963 through mid-1964. It’s plausible that you could display the DC-8 next to the 720, but all the photos of the Northwest Orient DC-8s I can find on A-net were taken from Haneda (Tokyo) or Manila, so perhaps the DC-8s only plied the routes in the Far East while the 720 handled the US domestic routes. Northwest disposed of their five DC-8s relatively quickly (three to National and two to UTA), although I’m unable to find the dates of the transfer. Certainly before the 727s began arriving in 1963, since that’s about the time Northwest Orient began marketing themselves as “the Fan Jet airline”.
Keep up the good work. We’re all counting on you…
Cheers!
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Right now, the plan is to go with the later style “Wedge”, having none thru hell painting the wrap-around sash on the DC-8.
I’ll map out and paint the wedge in white first, when i re-spray white around the windshield frames and the white solar cap.
I’ll be able to park my 720B with a BOAC Super VC10 in the background. For a DC-8 companion, i’m thinking about a Western Airlines Electra, but only if the later style paint scheme works.
I’m also contemplating a short tail Pan Am 707, or a tall tail 707-139 Western conversion.
However, i still need to finish my 727 (which is still progressing; it’s just that scribing panel lines on the wing is tedious…).
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Okay, I have questions. I <b>KNOW </b>you have answered, but my scroll finger cramped up. So, here we go:
Again, WHY decant? I myself have not found a clean way to do so. (I have not watched YouTube to learn yet) and it seems to be a ton of work. I use MrColor white/grey/black thinned as my base coat, and Tamiya Laqcuer as the finish coat. Not written in stone, but as a baseline.
i have the Starbond website in another tab ready to order. I just want to ensure I have the right product to click and order.
Gap filler super glue?
I have never had much (limited yes) success with using CA as a filler, even with recent posts from others, and this thread.I can see how the use of the aluminum works with the CA, do you keep the layer on the part when you sand away? I can’t word this without video….
Why are you making me become more insane?
Also, I must say your carpet bombing with MCLT is great! With the note, if you want the finish not glossy, don’t! Also, don’t worry about the extra cost, the carpet bombing also helps clean your airbrush.
i still have questions, but out of time
I don’t always say “Proceed as requested”
But when I do, it is because I have no clue what you just said.Oh yeah, what are using for your metal/engine paint?
I don’t always say “Proceed as requested”
But when I do, it is because I have no clue what you just said.1) Decanting is not difficult, if you’re prepared.
I tape a length of paper drinking straw about 5″ long onto the nozzle. I slowly press down on the trigger and the paint goes out the straw into the colour cup with a minimum of fuss. I do add some Mr Leveling thinner to it.
2) The Starbond Black CA that i use is the Medium-Thick variety.
3) Most (if not all) of the Bare Metal foil peels away during the final sanding process. The foil that remains in trace amounts is negligible.
4) Sounds like a personal problem. Consult your psychiatrist.
5) If the gloss paint was applied properly, Carpet Bombing it with MCLT improves the finish at the margins. While it looks fantastically glossy when freshly applied, as the paint dries and the thinner flashes off, the surface shrinks and much of the gloss is lost overnight. However, i still recommend this technique with gloss paints and clear coats.
-d-
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OK, Pink as a base layer did NOT work this time…
In a nutshell, it was not opaque enough to handle the contrast between the neutral grey plastic and the Tamiya White Primer.
I applied Tamiya Red over the pink- no improvement.
So, i took it all off and started over.
Tamiya White Primer to the Rescue!!
Wet Sanded with 6000 grit after application.
Now…let’s try this again….
Tamiya X-7 Red. Carpet bombed with MLT after application.
Drum Roll, Please…..
Up Next: The Red Wedgie…
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Posts: 123Location: Salt Lake CityOccupation: Retired. Twice: Civilian HR manager and US Army officerThe only thing more impressive than your painting sorcery, is your ability not to break the antenna on the tail.
Robert V. Leonard
Yeah that’s a plot device, in order to create extra suspense.
I will fashion some sort of protection for it, once i get the leading edge painted, after a clear coat goes on the upper fuselage.
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Red wedgies painted, hard candy shell applied to fuselage, hot section of the vertical fin done.
So when its dry, time to mask all of it off and get down to the “dirty work” of painting the rest of the plane.
-d-
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Awesome job, Dave!! Only the bare metal belly and wings and stabs to go. You got this!
Looking forward to the next chapter!
Cheers!
Tom
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David, I must say I am fascinated not only by the tremendous precision of your model craftmanship, but also by the care and elegance with which you present the construction process. Hats off to you! It is absolutely amazing and very inspiring. Thanks a lot!
Zbynek Honzik
www.zbynek-honzik.czThanks Zbynek,
My Mum was an English major and a technical writer, and in a previous life i was a flight instructor. So, i’m used to writing stuff down about aeroplanes and providing clear step by step instructions (most of the time)…
-d-
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Well, that explains a lot, David. 🙂
Thanks!
Zbynek Honzik
www.zbynek-honzik.czAnd so, back to this thing…
The first thing i did was i masked off the upper fuselage. Next, the creative destruction began.
The #2 engine was cracked free of the wing, and a revised joint using 2 short lengths of brass rod were inserted into the upper pylon/
It was then re-glued to the lower wing plank with CA. Much stronger joint compared to no brass reinforcement at all.
And around this time…. it became clear that the lower fuselage was missing a LOT of panel lines and significant details.
First off, there is one more set of longitudinal panel lines that Roden ignored…
Second, Roden missed the rather prominent Air Cycle Machine exhausts…
There are two prominent hatches forward and behind the nose wheel well- Electronics Rack Access and the compartment for the Doppler Radar..
Not to mention, the itty bitty door for ground power.
Finally, there are exhaust ports below and forward of the right cabin servicing door…
The Boeing 707 series Airplane Recovery Manual provides useful location info…
When the putty is dry, we’ll go back to work cleaning up the wing roots and re-locating the wing fillet flaps…
-d-
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Those ports on the starboard side are equipment section cooling.
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Good to see more progress on the 720, Dave!
Could the side ports you mention be the static ports for the airspeed indlcators and other instruments? Ram air comes in through the pitot tubes but then is compared to ambient conditions measured with the static ports. I have read of disasters where the aircraft was put through a wash, but the ground crew overlooked removing the protection over the static ports (very delicate instruments in their own right) when the finished, and for whatever reason the coverings were also overlooked by the pilot/first officer during walk-around. Upon take off, erroneous data lead to false airspeed and screwy vertical velocity readings which lead to departure stall and crash.
Roden has released the 707-32xC kit (I’ve seen a few examples on the Bay of Evil). Just in time for your next project after the 720!!
Cheers!
Tom
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It’s finally time to paint the wings.
Not depicted here, but the wings were primed with Tamiya LP-11 silver, and there was some subsequent re-sanding required to get scratches out of the wing planks, finishing with 6000 grit.
An intial coat of LP-11 was sprayed on, after which the forward wing section was masked and sprayed.
Tom Kalina believes that Corogard has an orange component to it. Turns out, Orange is a rather powerful colour.
I’m not sure if it is OK as is, or is just too orangey. My proposed fix would be to increase the silver content, leaving the grey and orange components unchanged.
Another thing i noticed about Northwest 720s is the “glove” insert on the wing upper planks is not obvious at all. On some aircraft, it is plainly visible. Not so with these NWA birds, although there are tonal differences in the Corogard on the wing leading edges.
-d-
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Corogard, Revisited.
First, a “Quick and Dirty” photo.
And now, more artfully staged…
Next: The lower wing box…
-d-
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Lower wing box is done. Working on the leading edges.
Something i noticed about the leading edge “gloves”: When you look at photos of 721 when it was being constructed, the wing upper surfaces are one uniform colour. Unlike some other 720s, where the leading edge glove is plainly visible and sticks out like a sore thumb.
Most “good” photos i have of 720Bs in the field are taken from the side, making it very hard to see the upper surfaces of the inboard wings. You can see just a *hint* of a grey colour just behind the leading edge.
So… i wonder if these gloves were periodically removed during inspections, and a decision was made to simply stop trying to paint/blend them in to the adjacent structure?
Anybody have some insight on this?
-d-
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Great question. I think the glove was just an aerodynamic addition and the underlying structure was left the same. In your pictures, are the other ones being built all 720s? Several 707-100s were brought back to the factory to have the wing gloves added as part of the -B mod, so that may explain some of the paint differences.
My only other guess would be that the material of the glove was different from the rest and had to be painted in a specific manner, which was then done on the whole wing for some frames. I too have seen pictures where the glove outline is very prominent, and others where it blends in with the same paint color.
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I am quite sure that the wing glove was not removed once built up. However, I also am of the recollection that it is a different material than the remainder of the wing surface. This should account for the slightly different color and reflectivity characteristics.
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Don’t know if this will be of any help. Comparison of wing glove to original wing. Glove was made of fiberglass with a redesigned leading edge.
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Thanks for providing these photos. I’d seen them before, but it was a long time ago.
The end-on photograph was taken from an an angle that exaggerates the proportions of the glove, but it gets the point across.
I saw a colour photo of a newly-minted Continental 720B (facebook 707 world page), and it appears the glove is the same colour as the corogard on the outboard wing sections…which is a hair lighter than the inboard wing.
Therefore, i will mix a shade or Corogard ever-so-slightly lighter, and mask and paint the glove segments accorningly. having just finished the DC-8 with a bare-metal wing, it feels odd putting “paint” on a 707 wing….
-d-
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I saw a colour photo of a newly-minted Continental 720B (facebook 707 world page), and it appears the glove is the same colour as the corogard on the outboard wing sections…which is a hair lighter than the inboard wing.
You learn something new every day… So that’s why the colo(u)r instruction on my Northwest Orient and Western 720Bs show the Corogard extending toward the wing leading edge instead of in a straight line with some bare metal wing between the leading edge and the forward edge of the Corogard in the center of the wing.
This photo shows my Northwest Orient collection. The 720B (Roden kit) at the bottom has barely perceptible Corogard due to the lighting I was using. The middle model is the Minicraft 707-320C kit (unmodified, but I have learned so much from what I’ve read here on AirlinerCafe in the past few months, that I will have to work harder on the other Minicraft 707s I have or wait for the Roden 707-320B kit) and the good ol’ Revell 727-100 (unmodified). I don’t have a photo of the Western 720B (Roden kit), unfortunately, where the Corogard stood out more prominently.
Cheers!
Tom
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Folks, please indulge me…
I located better photos of the Roden 720B kit and the wings showing the Corogard pattern that Dave talked about above.
Northwest Orient 720-51B, not quite finished, and certainly pales in comparison to what Dave is doing with his model!
And a shot of what will become a Western 720-047B (swizzle stick markings).
Cheers!
Tom
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I’m experimenting with modulating the Corogard on the wing leading edges slightly, so they have a more varied appearance like you see in the photos.
Film at 11.
-d-
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Progress report on the 720B.
It’s not a setback, but over the last week or so research into the wing glove mod uncovered a few interesting photos. This has prompted a re-think of the painting of the wings.
The glove outline (which is effectively an overlay atop the inboard wing) seriously re-draws the panel lines from the No.2 and No.3 pylons inboard.
This requires filling in said lines and sanding everything smooth. A lot like the treatment of the laminar-flow P-51 wing, but a more obscure airplane with fewer petty arguments about scale realism..
Filling in these lines will be something of a test case. I am considering filling the other, chord-wise panel lines on the upper wing torque box since at least half of them are not visible.
Second, in the course of masking up and painting individual segments of the leading edge, i heard an audible *snap* sound.
I was worried that this was the joint of the No. 2 engine pylon cracking (again), but turns out it was the joint of the upper left wing at the wing root fairing.
Coulda been worse, i suppose.
Anyway, this requires going in with Tamiya Extra Thin, wicking it into the crack, and setting the model aside to dry.
We will keep you updated on developments, as events unfold.
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