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Hi everyone,
I just joined the Cafe having recently taken up modelling again after an absence of a few decades (just retired and extracurricular activities constrained by the pandemic!).
I apologise in advance for some very basic questions as I fumble my way thru the modelling cosmos. I’m gradually finding where the key sources of wisdom are but would be grateful for some advice on paint-related issues.
I’m currently interested in Pan Am aircraft and started with the older, piston engine planes such as B-307 and B-377 which have a largely metallic finish but am moving on to the jets, starting with the 707, which have a wider mix of colors.
My first question is what airbrush paint to use in order to get a good finish for the gloss white surfaces?
I keep reading that getting a good white finish is tricky and that some white paints are difficult to work with. I read that someone used Vallejo white primer followed by gloss to get a good finish but would love to hear others’ views on this.
My 2nd question is more general – I’d like to locate a definitive source of information on specific FS colors for Pan Am jets in general (if it exists) as I believe the paint instructions in kits are often inaccurate.
I’m also looking for accurate info on demarcation lines for the various aircraft types. I’ve ordered some decals which come with some useful drawings but any other sources of drawings showing all elevations would be great.
In all honesty, I could list a hundred questions as there’s so much to learn beginning from ground zero but this would be a great start.
I’m gradually learning that kit building is about 20% construction, 80% painting 😀
Any help / pointers would be much appreciated!
Thanks in advance,
Tom.
Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone …
Hi Tom,
Welcome to the cafe and I find it good to learn that you are researching your projects to such depth. I got my first model and made it with my dad when I was 8 and I am still learning… So I don’t think there is a holy modelling grail. But I can share my experiences with you. My conclusions so far:
1. Have fun, don’t worry about these super detailed models that others make. In other words, don’t put the bar too high for yourself. I learned the hard way.
2. White paints are to this day a mystery to me. Recently I have had very good results with Revell’s Aqua White #5. I also find Mr. Hobby white surface primer a very good paint, but it is flat, so you need to put a gloss coat over it (and that is another obstacle for me). After years of experimenting I also concluded that the right mix of paint and thinner is important as well as the right pressure of your airbrush. So painting a proper white gloss coat requires multidisciplinery skills.
3. Unfortunately I cannot help you with your second answer. However, the white would simply be a normal white I’d presume. The blue I don’t know and the rest is factory standard colors (e.g. boeing grey on the wings and aluminium for the fuselage).
4. Regarding the demarcation lines I’d suggest to use the photos on airliners.net and jetphotos.net and other sites that have photos. I am not sure if there is a specific Pan Am site with this information.
Finally, all my knowledge about specific aircraft and airlines has proven to be more of an obstacle, rather than an advantage. Because I want to get all the details right, my builds are slowed down or halted. So every now and then I build a fighter jet or WWII model. As I lack the knowledge of these aircraft I just build them, paint them and finish them. My point is that it may help to change your focus avery once in a while.
Best of luck. Looking forward to the models you are making.
Kind regards, Ingmar
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Tom,
You could try using spray cans for white.
I’ve used Tamiya TS-26 Pure White, spays very nicely, though quite expensive for the size of can.
Or if you’re in the UK, Halfords automative spray cans, Appliance White. Bigger can, good white colour that won’t yellow over time. You’ll have to get used to the spray pressure which I find can give an ‘orange peel’ effect when dry. This can be easily resolved with some careful sanding once the paint is dry.
Regards
Andy
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Greetings,
I use Tamiya X-2 White if I am air brushing and Krylon Gloss White if I am spraying. I also primer with Tamiya Gray Surface primer to get an even color across the model.
Good luck!
Mark
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Hi Tom!
Welcome to the Cafe! And we’re all glad you’re coming back to airliner modeling. Looking forward to seeing your work soon.
I have to echo and agree with Ingmar…don’t set the bar too high for yourself. That can lead quickly to disappointment, and possible loop practice as you toss your work towards the bin. Enjoy your process, discover, learn, and learn some more. Then please share…we ALL learn from everyone else. I have a friend in the north that says “school never stops!” And he is so right…learned much from him, because I’m always “in school” while at the workbench.
As for white paint…I’ve landed on Tamiya TS-26, and have yet to find anything better. Sprays on easy, but is dependent on a well prepared, primed and sanded surface before applying. Spray in short thin costs until you have your desired finish. Allow a curing time of at least a few days…generally I allow for 7 days. And it has yet to yellow or fade.
I would also highly recommend that you choose a particular aircraft to model, then research THAT particular aircraft. Using this method, I have found that my research is limited, and doesn’t cause confusion, second guessing, and just plain frustration.
Here’s my breakdown of percentages of airliner building….
10% research, 10% prep work, 20% paint work, and 1000% patience.
Have fun!
Cheers,
Paul
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Agree Tamiya TS-26 straight out of the spray can is my savior since Model Master discontinued the High Gloss White enamel paint which did not yellow over time or with Future on it. It is the brightest white high gloss paint I have found thus far. We just need Tamiya to come out with Boeing Gray exact match.
Let me know what I can do to help with questions. Still iterating after 30 years of modeling, so have some lessons learned and lemonade made out of lemons.
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Hi all,
many thanks for your quick replies and I’m really grateful for your advice.
In line with Ingmar and Paul’s comments, I don’t have any illusions about becoming a modelling perfectionist although I’m in awe of those that are as I’ve been viewing a lot of YouTube videos, including the IPMS events and marvel at the sheer skill and imagination of these modelling aces.
I’ll be content to reach a level where I can produce good quality build and paint jobs that are reasonably accurate. I’d forgotten how much fun this can be and also how addictive a hobby this is and it’s rekindled my love for aviation. I’m looking forward to being able to visit aviation museums again when things open up here in the UK and also be able to visit museums in the US once travel opens up. I’ve been to a few great ones over the years, including the Udvar/Hazy Air and Space Museum as recently as 2019.
Like Ingmar, my plan is to alternate airliners with jet fighters and have already built a small stash of interesting 1:48 kits as a break away from airliners, although those require a lot of skill also – just a different emphasis on build vs painting, I think. ( I also bought a 1:72 XB-70, which looks great but will keep this until I’ve upped my game significantly).
Recently when I’ve hit a few self-inflicted obstacles (paint related), it has slowed me down but I’ll take your advice and not aim for perfection but instead learn from the process and move on. I bought a couple of cheap B-377 1:144 scale kits to use them for practice and learn how to use my recently purchased airbrush. I’ve made a few mistakes but the lessons learned will help me improve my technique and get better results with more expensive, detailed models. I have an Academy 1:72 B-377 on the way and want to make a decent job of that one.
Thanks to all also for the white paint advice which I’ll take on board. The Tamiya X-2 sounds good Mark and I already have Vallejo gray primer so may use that as a base. I might also experiment with the Tamiya TS-26 spray can option as Andy and Paul suggested but will wait until I have my spray booth with extractor set up to avoid asphyxiating myself 😀
I’m sure that painting is going to be the hardest thing for me to master and as Ingmar said, it’s definitely a multi-skilled activity but if it was easy it wouldn’t be as much fun or satisfying when you see the finished result. I agree with Paul’s 1000% patience figure although, having recently retired from the IT services industry, I can honestly say my patience has been tested to near destruction!
Once I have something of merit to show I’ll post a photo or 2 but for the next few weeks I’ll probably still be in the experimental phase (my personal skunk works!).
Once again, I truly appreciate the warm welcome and interest and look forward to many more conversations on this fabulous subject matter!
Cheers,
Tom.
Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone …
Tom, welcome back to airliner modeling! Regarding the white paint, several people I know use Tamiya white primer and mist it on in thin layers, then use polishing pads to get it to a satin sheen. I’m not a huge friend of rattle cans, so I decant it and mix it with Tamiya Thinner and airbrush it. Seems to work pretty well.
Regarding frustration, one thing I’ve learned is not to attempt to remove small dust fuzzies from wet paint, it always makes it worse. Just wait for it to cure and then sand it with 4000-grit.
Pan Am had a bit of a hodgepodge of things from a standardization standpoint. Some 707s had the PW meatballs, others did not. Some had a partial set, etc. As other have said, pick a specific example you wish to build and then do that.
As Ingmar said, knowledge can be a curse. Building 707s in some respects was more fun for me than some of the newer planes I’ve worked on because there’s less documentation, so you make a decision and proceed. With the newer planes there are thousands of pictures, so you can spend countless hours researching every detail.
For natural metal finishes, I like to use the AK Interactive paints, they cure hard and don’t rub off as easily as Alclad does. Metal foil looks great, but it’s fiddly IMHO.
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Andy White :
Tom,You could try using spray cans for white.
I’ve used Tamiya TS-26 Pure White, spays very nicely, though quite expensive for the size of can.
Or if you’re in the UK, Halfords automative spray cans, Appliance White. Bigger can, good white colour that won’t yellow over time. You’ll have to get used to the spray pressure which I find can give an ‘orange peel’ effect when dry. This can be easily resolved with some careful sanding once the paint is dry.
Regards
Andy
I always use Halfords’ Appliance Gloss White, also their white and grey pimers. Gives a perfect finish every time. The key to getting a good finish is to always ensure that the aerosol is at room temperature when you use it. Colder temperatures can affect the finish. Halfords Racking Grey is also a very good match for Boeing Gray for aircraft wings.
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Hi again,
Having just read the reply from DullesFlyer, I decided to order a 100ml can of TS-26 as this seems to be a popular option.
Amazon UK didn’t seem to stock iit so I ordered from eBay and was surprised at the wide range of prices, but settled on an offer at £9 / @$12.
It’s obviously good for covering larger areas so it should be handy when I’m building my XB-70, which is a huge model, but used more judiciously on the white surfaces of my 1:144 Boeing airliners.
One other question came to mind – is grey the best option for priming for gloss white, in order to make it easier to see what areas you’ve covered?
Thanks again for the advice and I’ll continue to research the demarcation lines so I can do the masking correctly.
Tom.
Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone …
I’m a huge fan of TS-26. For me I always prime before painting. Tamiya makes fine surface primer in white, gray, and light gray. The underlying plastic color and the top coat will decide which color of primer I use. If a dark plastic for a light color I’ll likely use gray primer. I’ve also started with gray primer, then white primer, and finally a light top color. A white primer will really help a bright top color to stand out and a gray primer will dull a bright color.
The TS-26 does seem thin which is just an observation and not a complaint. To cover up a different color you’ll need a good primer and quite a few light coats of paint. If you try to paint over a dark color without priming first you’ll never seem to cover up the darker paint. Ask me how I know
A “secret” I do is to use Tamiya light gray primer with a Future coat for my Boeing gray. I know it’s not quite exact but it works for me.
I also don’t mix brands of primer and paint. I know others do but for me I figure why risk having things “go bad”. Tamiya sprays aren’t cheap but seem almost foolproof. Though I don’t recommend it I recently managed to prime, paint, and assemble some sub assemblies all in a day recently. Try that with Testors enamels LOL……
Ken
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Tom,
I’ll echo what Ken noted, especially about the TS-26 being rather thin. You’ll likely need
multiple misted coats to achieve the final result. Just don’t go crazy with it as you may
encounter unwanted runs or puddles. I usually paint white tops over Tamiya white primer.
Some people skip the TS-26 altogether, preferring to polish out the primer for the final
white. Your model, your choice.
Alan Aronoff
Where there's a will, there's a relative.tomcat72 :
Hi again,Having just read the reply from DullesFlyer, I decided to order a 100ml can of TS-26 as this seems to be a popular option.
Amazon UK didn’t seem to stock iit so I ordered from eBay and was surprised at the wide range of prices, but settled on an offer at £9 / @$12.
It’s obviously good for covering larger areas so it should be handy when I’m building my XB-70, which is a huge model, but used more judiciously on the white surfaces of my 1:144 Boeing airliners.
One other question came to mind – is grey the best option for priming for gloss white, in order to make it easier to see what areas you’ve covered?
Thanks again for the advice and I’ll continue to research the demarcation lines so I can do the masking correctly.
Tom.
If you want Tamiya TS spray paints in the UK go to emodels.co.uk. They sell them for £6.99. Tamiya spray paints are way overpriced at £6.99 for a 100ml can. Halfords own-brand Appliance Gloss White is every bit as good, if not better, and costs £7.99 for a 500ml can. Just spray the model with Halfords White Primer followed by Appliance Gloss White and you’ll get a beautiful finish at a fraction of the cost.
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Wow, lots of great input from everyone.
Some of main takeaways are
1 several misted coats are best (probably regardless of paint type) avoiding runs and orange peel
2 light gray or white primer is best for a white finish and should also reduce no of coats needed
3 TS-26 is good, albeit very expensive, but may try the suggestion of my compatriot and look at Halfords 500ml can (I’ve bought the TS-26 anyway so will use it initially at least)
4 another option is to just use white primer followed by polish
5 possibly best not mixing different brand products as results are unpredictableOn the last point, I’d kind I’d settled on Vallejo products for that very reason however, now I’ve invested in Tamiya paint, I’ll buy some of their primer.
The fact that Vallejo’s paint comes airbrush-ready was attractive (for lazies like myself) but they also have these great color sets of FS standard paints which is really attractive. I bought the US Navy set of 8 colors for my jet fighters but I think they only do military paint sets. I wonder if there’s a market for airliner color sets?
I’ll experiment with most or all of the options you’ve suggested (including airbrush paints) as I have a bunch of cheap kits to play with and a lot of lockdown time on my hands
.I’ve more than enough to go on so thanks once again.
BTW – it’s great to hear from a diverse and geographically dispersed group of people. Takes me back to my years at Digital Equipment Corp, by light years the best company I ever worked for!
Cheers, Tom.
Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone …
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