- This topic has 14 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I’m not confused of their random placement of the FAA registrations location on airplanes, but can’t find any reasoning about its description.I know the basic N#### makes for a lot of multiple usages on aircraft of any type.It’s the alpha designation suffix at the end of the registration number gives a unique registration identity for a particular aircraft, but what defines that alpha group of letters?It’s easy to say they represent the ‘Airline’ or the ‘Lessors’ initials, but there are some DELTA planes still wearing registrations ending with NWA or RA signifying that their equipment was the result by the acquisition from a previous airline merger. Does N304WA represent a once owned former Western Airlines Boeing 737-347 airplane?Can an airline continue to use the ‘Lessors’ or previous ‘Air Carriers’ suffix initials even after buying out that airline or until the scraping of that plane? Does an airplane have to be re-registered if the plane’s leasing company initials change? Or only if that plane is sold outright into the user airline’s ownership?And, if the government of the USA is like most American state governments do airlines have to pay a yearly licence fee, (and if so is it like auto cars), they have to have a copy of that updated registration posted somewhere in the cockpit to show that airplane is legal complainant to operate in the skies of the USA using the registration painted on airplane exterior ?Why don’t not all aircraft have to be re-registered when an airline takes them over by a merging with another airline, rather than continue to use the former owners suffix code letters? Is it the cost of doing a re- registration a significant cost ?
Edit your Profile to get a forum signature.
Each airline has its own logic as to the sequence of registrations within a type or sub-type, and there may be occasional one-offs within a type if a desired registration is not available. I’ve flown on airliners that were re-registered (some ex-ATA 757-300s that Continental purchased) and some that weren’t (an ex-NW 757 in Delta colors), and some that had oddball letters within a type (ex. Delta’s N733DS, where most Delta L-1011s had registrations ending in DA; it could have been that N733DA was already in use when the aircraft was delivered). Some airlines may like for all the registrations to line up, while others may have functional reasons (for instance, aircraft from another operator may have functional differences that factor into route assignments). The cost of re-registration may not be the issue so much as it may be less hassle to keep the old one, or the owner may just have bigger fish to fry than worrying about all the registrations lining up.
Jodie Peeler
"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." - Sayre's Law
Think of it as a license plate in a state where it transfers to the new owner after a sale. The airlines that end their N numbers with their initials are like a vanity plate. It’s kind of cool but not necessary. Sometimes it can help to differentiate fleets or systems but also sometimes your next sequence registrations are already taken by someone else and you skip a few. Or in my current company’s case they didn’t leave themselves enough room. I have heard delta likes some of the NW endings as a tribute – they’ve registered new airplanes recently to end with NW. I don’t think the registration cost is that high but it is a “why bother?” cost.
most of the public don’t know/care what type of plane they are on least of all have interest in tail numbers.
Fleet numbers are a better way to differentiate than tail numbers and that is even less likely to be publicly noticed.
Edit your Profile to get a forum signature.
most of the public don’t know/care what type of plane they are on least of all have interest in tail numbers.
Fleet numbers are a better way to differentiate than tail numbers and that is even less likely to be publicly noticed.
Exactly. Enthusiasts and those with some inside knowledge notice these things and the “why” becomes an itch we need scratched. But, as with paint schemes, the general public is more concerned about their plane getting them where they want to go and getting there on time (and safely).
I personally thought it was interesting the way Continental registered its various types, which tried to get the last three digits of a registration to align with the ship’s fleet number. It would inevitably bump into a registration that wasn’t available, so they’d have to do the best they could, which meant you might have sequential ships that were N758XX, N568XX, N578XX, etc. Once I finally figured it out I thought it was clever, even if it would drive a spreadsheet user crazy!
Jodie Peeler
"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." - Sayre's Law
I think the rule is that you need 1-5 numbers, 0-2 letters after, and max 5 chars. As others have said, some carriers like to try and sequence them in some logical fashion (e.g. NW A330s N8**NW starting at 01 and going to 21). In that case, Delta kept the sequence with the 242t ones they got in 2016 and went N822NW-N831NW to keep the same sequence.
Re-registering planes is not that hard. I know of a plane that had a registration N666** (where the ** were letters) that the owner had reregistered to 444** because they didn’t like the “666” part of it. I guess they prefer Western superstitions (the devil) more than Chinese ones (4 sounds a lot like the word for “death,” hence few Chinese registrations with lots of 4s in them).
Edit your Profile to get a forum signature.
In response to a few of the original questions, there is no requirement that a U.S. registration’s numbers/letters are in any way tied to the owner/operator. For instance, Delta would be free to register all their airplanes with N***UA registrations if they wanted to to. Likewise, when airplanes move between operators, there is no requirement to change the registration. Yes, the registration is a very good way to determine previous (or original) operators of a particular airframe. As noted, -WA in the Delta fleet came from Western as a result of that merger. Piedmont got many of its 727-200s from PSA, and kept their -PS registrations. American has had a mix through the years -AC from AirCal, -TW from TWA, -AW, -AY, -US from the US Airways merger. Sometimes mergers pre-empt a well-laid plan. Piedmont was set to have its 737-400s delivered with N4**P registrations, but by the time delivery came around, USAir had bought the airline, so the frames were delivered with N4**US registrations in anticipation of the merger.
Yes, there is a fee involved with registrations, and they must be renewed on a recurring basis. Everything is contingent upon the desired registration being available. As a result, many operators (airlines as well as bizjets) will reserve registrations for future use. The FAA will allow you to hold registrations you aren’t currently using, or those that you had used on airframes that are now retired and de-registered.
As Jodie pointed out with Continental, there is generally a method to the madness with large fleet registrations. Often airlines will make sure the numbers in the registration are sequential and will adjust the trailing letters to fit availability – hence the mix of DL, DE, DA, DN, DZ, DX etc through the Delta fleets that Jodie mentioned (Delta’s later 757s, 767s and 737-800s went a bit off-sequence on the number continuity theme). Some airlines will just skip numbers in the sequence if the desired end letter combo isn’t available. Once mergers and used aircraft enter fleets, all bets are off, and you will often end up with a hodge-podge within a fleet. If the aircraft are coming from US operators, they often will keep the old registration. If they are coming from foreign registries, they will generally have to be re-registered with US marks (though some do not, if being leased from certain jurisdictions) – so if they have to get new registrations, the operator will often try to make them fit an overall scheme (like DL is doing with the former Lionair 737-900s that are entering the fleet) Some will go for clever (like Virgin Atlantic does), particularly in the bizjet world. A great example is Phil Knight (the founder of Nike), who registers his personal airplane N1KE.
Hope this helps
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"
Forgot one more answer – Yes, the registration paperwork must be carried on the aircraft (nearly always on the flight deck in practice, though I believe the FAR still just says “onboard the aircraft”)
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"
Thanks a lot “727 flyer” and others . There were a lot of answers given to questions that I have wondered about since I first noticed the N****PA on early Pan Am 707’s.
I should have also asked whether there is a registration height size (upper or lower limits) that must visually be displayed on commercial aircraft sides?
Edit your Profile to get a forum signature.
Delta’s later 757s, 767s and 737-800s went a bit off-sequence on the number continuity theme
This is a mild digression but it reinforces what you wrote about an owner can make the suffix anything they want: Delta’s 767-400s carrying registrations that were in the N8xxMH series. With the custom for Delta being “DA” or “DL” or such, I could never figure out the reasoning for “MH.” (Although I did like the joke that, in reference to then-CEO Leo Mullin, it stood for “Mullin Holdings.”)
It’s a wonderful world!
Jodie Peeler
"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." - Sayre's Law
The story I heard (or read) was that the Delta 767-400s got the -MH as a tribute to the type. Supposedly the 767-400 was nicknamed the Mukilteo Hunchback because one of the original proposals for the larger variant (767-X) that became the -400 was going to have a partial upper deck:
Mike
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"
Generally, the minimum registration height for fixed-wing U.S. aircraft is 12 inches (there are some exceptions, but none would apply to in-service airliners). Some airlines use larger, but 12 inches seems to be the most common.
Mike
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"
The story I heard (or read) was that the Delta 767-400s got the -MH as a tribute to the type. Supposedly the 767-400 was nicknamed the Mukilteo Hunchback because one of the original proposals for the larger variant (767-X) that became the -400 was going to have a partial upper deck:
That’s something else! Thank you for sharing that. That’s good enough for me to mark the mystery solved! 🙂
Jodie Peeler
"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." - Sayre's Law
Some airlines do try to reserve sequential series of number/letter combinations for fleets of aircraft. But since there is generally no rhyme or reason to N-numbers prescribed by the FAA, any one number in the series may not be available because it is assigned to some one off (usually private) aircraft. So, e.g., you might find a sequential series of numbers for a subfleet of e.g. AA 737-800s, but while some numbers are available with AA at the end, some are not, so they switch to AM or something else entirely.
Edit your Profile to get a forum signature.
Although I did like the joke that, in reference to then-CEO Leo Mullin, it stood for “Mullin Holdings.”)
HAHA!
And part of me still says “That sonofabitch”! And that dragon lady burns too. They can both rot…
Okay, breathe…
Rob Morales
IPMS 31535
Chapter Contact
IPMS Marietta Scale Modelers "It's ONLY a Hobby!"
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.