Airlinercafe Home Page

Stop being a lurker - join our community and get involved. Sign up and start a conversation!
 

      Author Message

      the PRIDEbird


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 831
      Location: south of FRA close to RWY 18
      Occupation: window seat or aisle seat?
      Age: 51

      Post #57301, posted on 03-24-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      An A320 of Germanwings crashed this morning at 10:53 in the French Alps near Barcelonnette, Département Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, on its way from BCN to DUS.
      All 150 souls on board, 144 passengers, most of them Germans, including a school class of 16 students and 2 teachers, and Spaniards as well as 6 crew members died.

      Flight 4U-9525 departed BCN at 10:01 a.m. lcl and reached cruising altitude of 38.00ft at 10:45.
      After a minute the A320 went into controlled descent with a rate of 1.000m/min.
      The radar contact lost at 10:53.

      A horrible tragedy and a black day for Germanwings, Lufthansa and whole aviation.

      My minds are with the families, relatives and friends of the killed passengers and crew members!

      Sven

      Author Message

      aro757


      Administrators

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 1825
      Location: San Ramon, CA
      Occupation: Software Engineer
      Age:

      Post #57304, posted on 03-24-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Really sad to wake up this morning to this news. May they rest in peace.

      It really hasn't been a good past 12 months for aviation.

      Regards,
      ahmed |
      --o--o-( )-o--o--

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57332, posted on 03-26-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I'm stunned.

      Author Message

      aro757


      Administrators

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 1825
      Location: San Ramon, CA
      Occupation: Software Engineer
      Age:

      Post #57341, posted on 03-26-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Horrifying last few minutes for the passengers. You have to ask yourself, why? Why take all those innocent people with you?

      Sadly, the same protocol that is supposed to keep a terrorist out of the cockpit, kept the pilot out. Something has to be done about it...

      Regards,
      ahmed |
      --o--o-( )-o--o--

      Author Message

      727flyer


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 124
      Location: Appalachian Mountains
      Occupation: Kerosene-burner
      Age:

      Post #57343, posted on 03-26-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      It would appear Germanwings protocol for pilots leaving the flight deck is not the same as US carriers. That might well have made a difference...

      Heartbreaking for the families of the innocents.

      "Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"

      Author Message

      TheFlyingDutchman


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 500
      Location: Haarlem
      Occupation: Procrastinator
      Age: 26

      Post #57344, posted on 03-26-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      727flyer :
      It would appear Germanwings protocol for pilots leaving the flight deck is not the same as US carriers. That might well have made a difference...

      Heartbreaking for the families of the innocents.



      It seems the always-two-persons-in-the-cockpit rule was a US thing until now, it never was a rule officially at most European airlines.

      Author Message

      CanalGuna


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 161
      Location: Santiago
      Occupation: Airline Pilot
      Age: 35

      Post #57352, posted on 03-27-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Deeply sad about this. We have the same US protocol for leaving the cockpit, but I have to admit it was not always followed. I have been applying it strictly for a year and a half though, and now I guess many more will follow it... .. at least for some time.

      You never get to know who, where and how will be the next Columbine, guess the protcols should be revised. Maybe a on-the-fly each-day new entry code at dispatch briefing? A non-overrideable one of course. In case of terrorists daring to get the code and entering, I'll be waiting with the cockpit axe ready.

      What a horrible loss.

      Ignacio Allende C.

      Speed is life.
      Altitude is Life Insurance.

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57353, posted on 03-27-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I'm shocked that in this post-9/11 world, any airline anywhere would not follow the FAA's cockpit occupancy rules. That's pretty amazing.

      Author Message

      CanalGuna


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 161
      Location: Santiago
      Occupation: Airline Pilot
      Age: 35

      Post #57389, posted on 03-28-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      It is not that amazing to me Jennings, we are dealing with a different kind of threat on this one, one that comes from the inside. Besides that, there are different realities around the world, not every airline moves by north american standards and scenario, though we watch, listen and learn when needed.

      Ignacio Allende C.

      Speed is life.
      Altitude is Life Insurance.

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57390, posted on 03-28-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Terrorism threats are hardly unique to US airlines. I'm still amazed that the FAA cockpit occupancy rules haven't been made compulsory in the EU. It's just plain common sense, and very likely would have prevented this tragedy, regardless of where the threat came from.

      Author Message

      CanalGuna


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 161
      Location: Santiago
      Occupation: Airline Pilot
      Age: 35

      Post #57391, posted on 03-28-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I agree with you Jennings. It is just that ironically what keeps the terrorism threat out lets the suicidal one in. What really amazes me is a captain who can't access his own cockpit.

      We will never be able to rule out this kind of threat completely, for worse the cockpit's axe is on the first officer's side.

      Ignacio Allende C.

      Speed is life.
      Altitude is Life Insurance.

      Author Message

      dave6376


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 307
      Location: Perthshire, Scotland
      Occupation: Retired lawyer
      Age: 65

      Post #57393, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Jennings :
      I'm shocked that in this post-9/11 world, any airline anywhere would not follow the FAA's cockpit occupancy rules. That's pretty amazing.



      There's whole big world out there which isn't America and where the writ of the FAA doesn't run

      Author Message

      gavmh


      Upper Deck Member

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 701
      Location: Ratingen
      Occupation: retired airline pilot
      Age:

      Post #57396, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I totally disagree with Jennings.
      I could say a lot more here, believe me, but it would bust this forum!

      Kurt

      Author Message

      CanalGuna


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 161
      Location: Santiago
      Occupation: Airline Pilot
      Age: 35

      Post #57398, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I agree with him in the sense that obviously being more conservative may prevent things even more, but those 9/11 measures are intended for terrorism, not self-destruction.
      Measures about this kind of threat must be taken as soon as possible.

      Ignacio Allende C.

      Speed is life.
      Altitude is Life Insurance.

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57399, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      dave6376 :
      There's whole big world out there which isn't America and where the writ of the FAA doesn't run



      Wow, really? I wasn't aware of that. I'm sure glad you told me.

      But since the inception of civil aviation a hundred years ago, most of the rest of the world has ended up following rules and regulations first promulgated in the US, mainly because they made sense and improved safety for everyone.

      I fail to see any logic whatsoever to an argument against implementing a regulation against single person cockpit occupancy throughout ICAO. It costs nothing, and there is no down side. The only possible thing it can do is increase safety.

      I strongly suspect that if it had been your loved ones aboard the Germanwings flight last week, you'd feel differently about it. If it's just because it's something that started in America, then that's a problem you need to deal with yourself. I don't really give a rat's behind what you think about America (lord knows we're far from perfect), but sometimes good ideas actually do originate here.

      I'm still (and will remain) shocked that the EU did not mandate the same cockpit occupancy rules the FAA has had since 9/11. And we see what the result was, don't we?

      Author Message

      sky303


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 167
      Location: Georgia
      Occupation: Airline Management
      Age: 52

      Post #57400, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Jennings :

      But since the inception of civil aviation a hundred years ago, most of the rest of the world has ended up following rules and regulations first promulgated in the US, mainly because they made sense and improved safety for everyone.



      The same FAA that did not see a threat from passengers being in possession of knives/razor blades. And yes, that was a direct statement from an FAA Security Inspector in 2001.

      Rob Morales
      ATL

      Captain, you'll be in charge of this flight
      when I unhook the towbar!

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57401, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Which has what to do with the discussion at hand? (answer: nothing). The world was different before 9/11, not just in America.

      You can argue all you want, but it is a historical fact that ICAO and most other countries followed the lead of the US on many areas of aviation safety, going all the way back to the 1920s.

      And I still maintain that any arguments against single person cockpit occupancy rules are ridiculous by their nature.

      Author Message

      TheFlyingDutchman


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 500
      Location: Haarlem
      Occupation: Procrastinator
      Age: 26

      Post #57404, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I refrain from having a real opinion on this since I'm not a pilot, nor cabin crew, so I don't know what the procedures are and what European flight crew thinks of them.
      I just wanted to say: we all know the stereotypical (US) American who does not have a very.. 'globally' view on things and I see Jennings being depicted as such in this topic. Being a reader on several forums where J writes as well (though I do not always agree with him) I know he does not really fit that stereotype. Just re-read his comments in this thread with my post in your mind. It might be useful for interpreting them right.

      Author Message

      CanalGuna


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 161
      Location: Santiago
      Occupation: Airline Pilot
      Age: 35

      Post #57406, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Let's not get personal on this. I understand different views. What I'm trying to state clear is that this is not about before/after 9/11. Both hijacking and suicidal crashes did happen way before that. For worse, after 9/11 and the bullet-proof door it finally became impossible for someone to get access to the cockpit, which in case of being able -in my point of view- would prevent these kind of acts, even if it means wrestling with someone until being helped.

      What do 9/11 and Germanwings have in common? People being able to crash an aircraft on purpose by safely isolating them from the cabin.
      What if after being hijacked on 9/11 and realizing what was happening, crew and passengers could have been able to enter the cockpit as they desperately tried?. Isn't the same this time with the captain desperately trying to get access until the very last second?.

      What an (avoidable) horror.



      Ps: I know we got pretty used to it, but let's not forget please that America is a continent, not country. (No hard feelings with USA)

      Ignacio Allende C.

      Speed is life.
      Altitude is Life Insurance.

      Author Message

      FLYHY


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 618
      Location: KSEA
      Occupation: M.80
      Age:

      Post #57407, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      I believe this article is one of the best viewpoints regarding this situation. As a professional pilot, I think it is also necessary to make sure all data is reviewed and made available before making any final conclusions. Terrible tragedy - may all their souls rest in peace.

      http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-pilot-visited-glider-field-crash-site-child-29971812

      Author Message

      TheFlyingDutchman


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 500
      Location: Haarlem
      Occupation: Procrastinator
      Age: 26

      Post #57409, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      CanalGuna :
      Let's not get personal on this.

      ...

      Ps: I know we got pretty used to it, but let's not forget please that America is a continent, not country. (No hard feelings with USA)



      Hey Ignacio,
      I just wanted to relativize some of the point of views in this discussion by adding some extra context that others might have missed I've seen a lot of internet discussions that made me lose my faith in humanity but this one doesn't and I wasn't afraid of it going that way

      And about your USA comment: don't forget those poor little island states in Oceania that are constantly left out by people calling the continent 'Australia'

      Author Message

      727flyer


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 124
      Location: Appalachian Mountains
      Occupation: Kerosene-burner
      Age:

      Post #57411, posted on 03-29-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      While I will gladly admit we here in the US are not the ultimate authority on everything, I have to agree that the policy of not having one person alone in the flight deck is one that should have been more widely implemented around the world. Like Jennings, I see very few meaningful negatives to the policy. Can it be a hassle at times? Sure. Can it interrupt cabin service at times? Sure. But as we saw in the Germanwings tragedy, the post-9/11 strengthened flight deck doors are not easily breached, whether something nefarious is afoot, or if the lone pilot had had a medical emergency, like cardiac arrest. It is impossible to regulate every possible risk out of aviation (or any mode of transportation), but this is one policy that has quite a bit of positive, and little negative.

      "Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!"

      Author Message

      BruinPrideBand


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 390
      Location: SGF
      Occupation: International Aviation Law
      Age:

      Post #57481, posted on 04-02-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      As someone who is beginning a career in aircraft safety and studies why airplanes crash I can't say that I am surprise such an event has occurred. I have had a "gut feeling" that something like this would eventually. Unfortunately--in the world we live in--there must be decisions regarding aircraft safety that weigh against one another (i.e. Preventing unwanted persons gaining cockpit access and those who should have access being locked out). My hope is that--like other aircraft crashes--lessons can be learned and new rules and regulations being applied to further enhance the safety of air travel. I also hope that this tragedy will do something to increase the awareness of mental health issues and screening/treatment for everyone (not just airline pilots). My thoughts continue to be with the family and friends of those on board and may the victims rest in peace.

      Chris

      "Sorry Goose... But it's time to buzz the Tower."

      Author Message

      sky303


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 167
      Location: Georgia
      Occupation: Airline Management
      Age: 52

      Post #57522, posted on 04-05-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Jennings :
      Which has what to do with the discussion at hand? (answer: nothing).

      You can argue all you want, but it is a historical fact that ICAO and most other countries followed the lead of the US on many areas of aviation safety, going all the way back to the 1920s.

      And I still maintain that any arguments against single person cockpit occupancy rules are ridiculous by their nature.



      I was pointing out that even the FAA doesn't always get it right, and alot of these rules have come about at the cost of thousands of lives. So while you have decreed that my statement has nothing to do with the point at hand, I disagree and wholeheartedly stand by my statement. But I only have 30 years of actual airline experience, many of those dealing directly with regulatory agencies.

      Rob Morales
      ATL

      Captain, you'll be in charge of this flight
      when I unhook the towbar!

      Author Message

      the PRIDEbird


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 831
      Location: south of FRA close to RWY 18
      Occupation: window seat or aisle seat?
      Age: 51

      Post #57527, posted on 04-05-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      The FDR has been found meanwhile....up to this point suicide in combination with homicide (as I describe this horrible event) wasn't yet confirmed.

      Nothing in life is 100% safe!
      You'll NEVER, NEVER have absolutely 100% guaranteed safety! NEVER EVER!!!!
      Even not with a 2-person rule!
      Nobody can read anybody's mind....
      If someone plans a suicide he may hide his intention very well.
      A mentally disordered person can be a very good actor and fool other people around.
      Nobody notices anything - neither his family, friends and workmates nor doctors or specialists!

      You think a 2-person cockpit rule provides more safety?
      Let's imagine.....same story:
      One pilot left the cockpit for a short while, a cabin crew member takes his place for that time.
      And let's imagine further on the other pilot (captain or 1st officer - it makes no difference) is mentally disordered and plans suicide.
      What prevents him to whack over the flight attendant's head with an ax (or anything else) and knock him out?
      And...what's the result?
      He still may crash the plane.....

      See FedEx flight 705! See Egyptair flight 990 (not confirmed but quite likely)!
      See Silk Air flight 185 (also not confirmed suicide but quite likely)!
      And probably Malaysian Airlines MH-370 too!

      The only safety weak point is the human factor - which is not to change!
      We have to live with it!

      Sven

      Author Message

      sky303


      Members

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 167
      Location: Georgia
      Occupation: Airline Management
      Age: 52

      Post #57529, posted on 04-06-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      the PRIDEbird :
      The FDR has been found meanwhile....up to this point suicide in combination with homicide (as I describe this horrible event) wasn't yet confirmed.

      Nothing in life is 100% safe!
      You'll NEVER, NEVER have absolutely 100% guaranteed safety! NEVER EVER!!!!
      Even not with a 2-person rule!
      Nobody can read anybody's mind....
      If someone plans a suicide he may hide his intention very well.
      A mentally disordered person can be a very good actor and fool other people around.
      Nobody notices anything - neither his family, friends and workmates nor doctors or specialists!

      You think a 2-person cockpit rule provides more safety?
      Let's imagine.....same story:
      One pilot left the cockpit for a short while, a cabin crew member takes his place for that time.
      And let's imagine further on the other pilot (captain or 1st officer - it makes no difference) is mentally disordered and plans suicide.
      What prevents him to whack over the flight attendant's head with an ax (or anything else) and knock him out?
      And...what's the result?
      He still may crash the plane.....

      See FedEx flight 705! See Egyptair flight 990 (not confirmed but quite likely)!
      See Silk Air flight 185 (also not confirmed suicide but quite likely)!
      And probably Malaysian Airlines MH-370 too!

      The only safety weak point is the human factor - which is not to change!
      We have to live with it!

      Sven



      Well said, Sven. Although I would still want to see a two-person cockpit rule universally, a mind bent on evil may still be the toughest thing to stop.

      Rob Morales
      ATL

      Captain, you'll be in charge of this flight
      when I unhook the towbar!

      Author Message

      Jennings


      Contributors

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 3664
      Location: The great desert southwest, USA
      Occupation: Nurse Anesthetist
      Age: 115

      Post #57532, posted on 04-06-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      When or where did anyone say that anything in life (other than death) is 100% ever, under any circumstances? If someone did tell you something was 100%, they lied to you.

      I was simply trying to make a point using basic common sense. Which, as we know, is the single rarest thing in the universe.

      Author Message

      insureart


      Upper Deck Member

       Online status  

       
      Add As Buddy
      Posts: 375
      Location: Florida
      Occupation: retired
      Age: 74

      Post #57604, posted on 04-11-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      No matter what rules and/or regs are adopted, there is NO SUCH THING AS 100% safe.
      We can only work towards making flying, as with any other activity, "SAFER" !
      So there can be NO argument against the two man rule in the quest for SAFER travel.