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      LH707


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      Post #52332, posted on 03-13-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      In 1978, the last commercial 707 frame (l/n 941) was built with CFM56 engines as a testbed for a re-engining program, and flew some flight tests before being converted to JT3Ds and delivered to the Moroccan Air Force. I've only found a small handful of pictures of this bird while in the testing guise, and would like to build a model of it. Does anybody have pictures, drawings, decals (wishful thinking), or other info about this particular frame? Specifically, I'd like to know about the exact color tones of the red and blue (FS numbers, preferably), and close-ups of the engines. The outsides of the nacelles had the CFM logos, did the insides have these as well?

      Thanks in advance

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      RAA188


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      Post #52334, posted on 03-13-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Rene Francillon's book "Boeing 707: Pioneer Jetliner" has a few photos of the bird in question, along with CFM-powered military 707 (not C-135) versions that provide some interesting comparisons. Some items of note:

      * There were many configuration changes over time. Some photos show CFM logos, others are devoid of any markings. Nacelles seem to be uniformly 707 (how appropriate ) grey.
      * Interestingly, even though the re-engined C-135s all lack thrust reversers, the 707 testbed and other modified airframes (the E-6 Mercury and E-8 J-STARS in particular) do have them. You'll need to scribe the nacelle break lines for these, as the nacelles in the Heller kit are smooth.
      * Pylons for the 707-700 are different than what's on the E-3. For lack of a better description, they're "lower profile"--they seem very shallow in height, almost blended into the top of the nacelle. I'm guessing the 707 had nacelles that sat higher and gave more ground clearance than what's on the E-6/E-8.
      * There may have been changes to the leading edge flaps to accommodate the different pylons. This would be a minimal scribing job and/or easily overlooked detail, unless you're going all-out and building your kit with the flaps extended.
      * Fuselage colors look pretty much generic "red" and "blue". Personally I'd use Tamiya rattle cans for this. Titling was black, in the Stratotype font. The registration was black, and appears to be in a fairly square (though not 45-degree military style) typeface.
      * The 707-700 program lasted from the end of November 1979 (Francillon states 27 November as the first flight) until the frame was converted back to a standard -320C in March of 1982, so while it didn't last long, there was still plenty of time to test a variety of configurations.

      You might check with the MoF library to see if they have any additional photos or information on what equipment was tested (strakes, different pylons, etc.).

      Hope that helps...

      Rob in AK

      "In building any model, I capture the essence of a moment in time. All models tell a story, not unlike a photograph or painting; but with tangible depth, not merely a flat view that leaves much to the imagination." --Me, at my 2016 KCAE Nats seminars

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      Post #52355, posted on 03-14-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Rob, thanks for the tips. Looking at some pictures, I'm inclined to agree with you about the pylons, now I need to hunt down drawings to see how they differ. Why do I always start "simple" projects and then run into these sorts of things? Model building provides excellent project management case studies, I guess. Worst case scenario I just accept that it won't be perfect (is that sacrilege to say here?) and go OOB.

      As to the T/Rs, I think the 135s missed out on them because of their lower weight, or they realized during testing that they weren't needed so they saved themselves the weight and mx costs. I do know that the 135 and E-6 had different pylons on the CFM56.

      Why would you use rattle cans as opposed to airbrushing the stripes?

      I got in touch with the MoF, they're re fung-shuing their archives and have a backlog of requests. They also suggested I get in touch with the Boeing historians, maybe I can go across the lake and check out their archives as well.

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      RAA188


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      Post #52358, posted on 03-14-2014 GMT-5 hours    
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      LH707 :
      As to the T/Rs, I think the 135s missed out on them because of their lower weight, or they realized during testing that they weren't needed so they saved themselves the weight and mx costs. I do know that the 135 and E-6 had different pylons on the CFM56.

      Why would you use rattle cans as opposed to airbrushing the stripes?

      I got in touch with the MoF, they're re fung-shuing their archives and have a backlog of requests. They also suggested I get in touch with the Boeing historians, maybe I can go across the lake and check out their archives as well.



      Regarding the TRs, I'm guessing that the design was a combination of weight and balance, cost, complexity, and the relatively light airframe. The 135 is really a good deal smaller than the 707, and in normal circumstances probably the TRs just wouldn't have been worth the extra headache.

      About the pylons I've no idea; it may well have had to do with the different wing planform, and what could be accommodated. Another possible point in favor of using the Heller kit parts rather than leftovers from one of the AMT 135s.

      And as far as paint is concerned, partially it's a personal preference given my great satisfaction with Tamiya paints; the fact that no photo I've seen shows the colors to be anything other than relatively generic shades of red and blue means there's little or no need for custom colors, and the ease of cans vs. the airbrush for what's really a pretty simple paint job are what steered me in that direction...

      I still owe you an email too, which I haven't forgotten . I'll be in touch soon.

      One last bit, regarding the typeface and some of the nuances of this bird, I'm betting Jennings will be one of your best resources here. I'm curious to see his thoughts about this particular frame...

      Rob in AK

      "In building any model, I capture the essence of a moment in time. All models tell a story, not unlike a photograph or painting; but with tangible depth, not merely a flat view that leaves much to the imagination." --Me, at my 2016 KCAE Nats seminars

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      Post #52380, posted on 03-17-2014 GMT-5 hours    
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      RAA188 :
      Regarding the TRs, I'm guessing that the design was a combination of weight and balance, cost, complexity, and the relatively light airframe. The 135 is really a good deal smaller than the 707, and in normal circumstances probably the TRs just wouldn't have been worth the extra headache.

      About the pylons I've no idea; it may well have had to do with the different wing planform, and what could be accommodated. Another possible point in favor of using the Heller kit parts rather than leftovers from one of the AMT 135s.

      And as far as paint is concerned, partially it's a personal preference given my great satisfaction with Tamiya paints; the fact that no photo I've seen shows the colors to be anything other than relatively generic shades of red and blue means there's little or no need for custom colors, and the ease of cans vs. the airbrush for what's really a pretty simple paint job are what steered me in that direction...

      I still owe you an email too, which I haven't forgotten . I'll be in touch soon.

      One last bit, regarding the typeface and some of the nuances of this bird, I'm betting Jennings will be one of your best resources here. I'm curious to see his thoughts about this particular frame...

      Rob in AK



      It looks like the pylon thing is more complicated than I thought, I've seen what look to be the smaller and larger ones on the 707-700 frame. The E-3D and 707-700 seem to have the same upper pylon shape (roughly level with wing LE), but the early 707-700 seems to have the engines higher under the wing. Perhaps they swapped them after they had interference issues, who knows. If my efforts to contact the archivists pan out, I'll update this.

      As to the engines, I've read a number of sources that claim the Heller CFM56s are more accurate than the AMT ones, so if you end up with some extras you may be able to sell them to someone trying to do a 135R.

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      LH707


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      Post #52874, posted on 04-19-2014 GMT-5 hours    
      Ok, now that I've got the pictures and the kit, I'm wondering about the pylons again, something looks a little off with the ones in the kit. Does anybody have experience building one of these up? It appears that the kit pylons slope down too sharply into the nacelle, can someone confirm if this is the case? The E-3F and 707-700 look like they have the same pylon design, but the -700 lacks the nacelle strakes and the little bumps on the nacelles, so I'll have to remove and fill these differences.

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      Post #60753, posted on 12-15-2015 GMT-5 hours    
      Update on this: I've now got a smaller place, so I think I'll try this in 144. Does anybody know how similar the DC8-71 engines from the MC kit are to the CFM56-2s fitted to the later military 707 derivatives? I know I'll need to redo the pylons, are the nacelles different as well? The physical engines are the same size and shape, so I'd imagine the whole setup should be pretty similar.

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      Post #68129, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      Dredging up this old thread again, does anybody have a good lead on 1:144 CFM56-2s? Is there a good resin set or should I grab a set of Minicraft ones from the DC-8 and shorten the lip and redo the pylons?

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      Post #68130, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      Back in the day, ATP made a set of CFM engines for the DC-8. Hunting down a set of those would probably be your best bet.


      Regards,
      ahmed |
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      Post #68131, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      LH707 :
      Dredging up this old thread again, does anybody have a good lead on 1:144 CFM56-2s? Is there a good resin set or should I grab a set of Minicraft ones from the DC-8 and shorten the lip and redo the pylons?



      Contrails Models make CFM engines for the 1/144 E-3 and E-6 kits.

      http://www.contrailsmodels.com/Engines.html (scroll halfway down)

      Just sand off the fairings on the nacelles sides.

      Scott Garard
      YSCB/CBR

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      Post #68132, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      You both beat me to it. The ATP engines show up on ebay from time to time.

      Chris

      "Sorry Goose... But it's time to buzz the Tower."

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      Post #68133, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      Hi all, thanks for the recommendations. Regarding these:

      Contrails: I've seen these in a search in the past, but have read that they're off shape wise, does anybody have experience with them?
      ATP: The cowling on the 707/E-3 was a bit shorter than on the DC-8, so I'd have to cut it down to fit
      MC DC-8 engines: I've heard the engine shape of these is good, so a cut-down intake and scratch pylon might be the way to go

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      Post #68134, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      I've no experience with the Contrails engines nor the ATP product... The minicraft DC-8 is wonderful and from my view the shape of the engines is pretty darned close (if not perfect?). I'd much rather modify plastic than resin but that's just me. If you are interested there are a couple of Minicraft DC-8s on ebay right now for around $25. If it were me... I'd buy one them, use the engines, then either put the rest in the parts bin or sell/give/put in parts bin the rest of the kit as the last set of ATP engines I ran across ended up selling for around $30 (I was a bidder but price went too steep for me). That is unless someone is willing to part with just the engines. Just my $.02

      Chris

      "Sorry Goose... But it's time to buzz the Tower."

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      Post #68135, posted on 09-14-2017 GMT-5 hours    
      LH707, I have an extra set of the ATP CFM56 engines if interested. Send me a private message and we can chat about price.

      Rodger Cook

      Alumni of: Hughes Airwest, Republic Airlines, Evergreen International

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      Post #68136, posted on 09-15-2017 GMT-5 hours    
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      Cabforward :
      LH707, I have an extra set of the ATP CFM56 engines if interested. Send me a private message and we can chat about price.



      PM Sent!

      I'll give the ATP ones a whirl, they'll probably need some adjustments to make them work, at least I have half a year until the next IPMS.