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      Redbelliedjet


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      Post #68999, posted on 01-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Hello All,

      I have been a long time user of the Alclad II products and have always had a love/hate relationship with them. On one hand, when it works out just right, the Alclad product makes a convincing metal finish. The issue is that they can be temperamental, and as of late, I have had experiences (since moving to Florida) where a couple of finished models (my recent Tu-154 and Il-86) which looked good initially, began to tarnish (for lack of a better word) after hanging on the wall for three or four months. As far as I know, there was nothing going on in the room which should have caused this. I later used Alclad on my Caravelle build, but I clear coated the Alclad with Future, and so far, it has been unaffected.

      With another writing project in progress, I began to look around at different metal options. Jodie recommended the Vallejo Metal Color line, so I though I would give it a go with a head to head comparison.

      I began with the recommended base coats, with the Alclad Gloss Black Base ALC-305 (top) and Vallejo's Acrylic-Polyurethane Surface Primer below. Note the satin texture of the Vallejo Primer.



      I then masked off three separate segments. As a convention, the top fuselage is still Alclad, while the lower is Vallejo. Starting with the nose of each, I sprayed Alclad II Chrome ALC-107 and Vallejo Metal Color Chrome 77.707. The center section was Alclad II White Aluminum and Vallejo Metal Color White Aluminum 77.706. The tail sections are Alclad II Steel ALC-110 and Vallejo Metal Color Steel 77.712.

      In my opinion, the Alclad Chrome did turn out a bit more mirror-like than the Vallejo counterpart, but the Vallejo White aluminum looked less grainy, and the two Steel colors looked virtually identical.



      After drying overnight, I decided to put these paints to the masking tape test. Using Tamiya Tape, I masked a cheatline separating the top and bottom of each fuselage. I then sprayed the lower half with Future to see the change, if any.



      A few things were noteworthy. First, the masking tape had no effect at all on the Vallejo products, while the Alclad Chrome was modified a bit where the tape adhered to the model. The other Alclad colors faired well under the tape. The Future had very little effect on any of the shades, either Alclad II or Vallejo.





      My spray booth is ventilated pretty well, but it is still a benefit that the Vallejo paints, being Acrylic, are nearly odorless where precautions may need to be taken with the Lacquer-based Alclad colors.

      Conclusion

      I think I am somewhat converted to the Vallejo product because of the ease of application and not being sensitive to fingerprints and such on the undercoat. With all but the very shiniest shades, the difference is small and and my experience was that the Vallejo is a bit more durable. That being said, if a super shiny finish is required, the Alclad II Chrome or Polished Aluminum seems to be the way to go, but I would avoid masking over it and would strongly consider use the Future to seal it from the environment and handling damage.

      Please keep in mind that these are only my opinions and I don't have any connection to either company.

      I would be very interested in hearing any additional ideas or techniques that work well for others in the group...

      All the best,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
      Redbelliedjet@airlinercafe.com
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      Post #69000, posted on 01-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      This is an interesting study. I am glad to have a visual study such as this to make the comparison and judge for myself.

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      Post #69001, posted on 01-07-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Good work Dan, thanks for posting the results. There's also an enamel metalizer that Bruinprideband told me about, now I forget the name of it.

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      Post #69002, posted on 01-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
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      LH707 :
      Good work Dan, thanks for posting the results. There's also an enamel metalizer that Bruinprideband told me about, now I forget the name of it.



      AK interactive xtreme metals

      The last week or so Iíve been experimenting with Molotow Liquid Chrome. Technically itís not meant to be sprayed (itís actually from a pen) but The results so far have been very impressive.

      Dan,

      Thanks for the review! I hadnít considered the Vallejo colors until now. Itís nice to know that there are other things out there than Alclad... itís so hard to work with.


      Chris

      "Sorry Goose... But it's time to buzz the Tower."

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      Post #69003, posted on 01-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      The Molotow markers are very handy when you need spot application of a bright metal effect (car modelers, of which I am one, love these markers for obvious reasons), and with a little practice you could conceivably use them to do the polished metal leading edges on wings and tailplanes. They sell a 30 ml refill container that I've read of people using so they don't have to decant from the marker. I've been able to wipe off goofs with a swab dampened with isopropyl alcohol, and I believe you can use isopropyl to thin the Molotow chrome as needed. I've never tried to airbrush the stuff, but I know of others who have.

      I was introduced to the Vallejo Metal colors about a year or so back and have been very happy with them. I've experimented with base coats and found they will also play very nicely with Tamiya Gray Primer. As with all metal finishes, it comes down to proper surface preparation. The Vallejo Metal colors are easy to work with and reasonably forgiving once you get the hang of working with them, which doesn't take long.

      Thanks to Dan for the helpful comparison!

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #69005, posted on 01-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      That's a great comparison Dan. Thanks for posting it! I need to get some of the Vallejo metallics.

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      Frank V


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      Post #69006, posted on 01-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      I too have used both types of metallizer and came to the same conclusion. Vallejo is far less toxic than the Alclad product and has proved to be tough when it comes to dealing with masking tape. Convincing metallic appearance too which is what it is all about after all.

      Frank van der Voet
      Calgary, AB, Canada

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      Graeme


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      Post #69007, posted on 01-08-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Very nice comparison, I live in the tropics, so I have found that simple old fashion corrosion can occur with paint just as with Bare Metal foil if it isn't treated in some way with a clear coat, I do find the Alclad clears very nice.
      Have seen the Vallejo, but not got any, but now looking at them in a new light, thanks Dan

      I very recently got some of the AK Interactive, but not got around to using any yet.

      One thing for me is I don't have much of a problem at all with most of the Alclad range, and have loved it from day 1, with the exception of the very high gloss ones like Chrome, which always "blooms" on me, no matter what I try, tried getting a new bottle, tried super light coat build ups, tried heavy second coat, always a patch that blooms up into a dull shade that I can't polish out no matter what.
      It's one of the reasons I got the AK.

      Graeme

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      Post #69008, posted on 01-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Thanks Everyone and I am glad it helps.

      Graeme, I have had the same experience with both A2 Chrome and Polished Metal which really bites into the relaxation factor a bit:-) The only way I have been able to make those work is to turn the flow rate WAY down, start about 10 inches away from the model, and set pressure to about 25 psi. I then do one VERY light (almost no color change) coat every 5 minutes until it is just right. My new Florida procedure is to immediately add three light Future coats and call it good.

      BTW, is the AK product you are using the True Metal wax polish? If so, what techniques are you using?

      Cheers,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
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      Post #69009, posted on 01-09-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      Redbelliedjet :
      Thanks Everyone and I am glad it helps.

      Graeme, I have had the same experience with both A2 Chrome and Polished Metal which really bites into the relaxation factor a bit:-) The only way I have been able to make those work is to turn the flow rate WAY down, start about 10 inches away from the model, and set pressure to about 25 psi. I then do one VERY light (almost no color change) coat every 5 minutes until it is just right. My new Florida procedure is to immediately add three light Future coats and call it good.

      BTW, is the AK product you are using the True Metal wax polish? If so, what techniques are you using?

      Cheers,

      Dan



      The Ak Xtreme Metals is an enamel. Different from the True Metals.

      Chris

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      Post #69014, posted on 01-10-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Thank you for the well-illustrated comparison review. Three questions:

      1) Does Vallejo require thinning for airbrush application?

      2) How does dry-to-cure time of Vallejo compare to Alclad II (base coat and metal colors)?

      3) Is there a Vallejo shade comparable to Alclad II Airframe Aluminum? (I find Airframe Aluminum to be the most realistic match for polished aluminum areas of airliners and also seems to give correct-looking contrast with adjacent Boeing gray areas.)

      Todd
      IWA

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      Post #69015, posted on 01-10-2018 GMT-5 hours    
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      Tango-Bravo :
      1) Does Vallejo require thinning for airbrush application?



      Vallejo metallics are ready to airbrush from the container. Just give the bottle a good 15-20 second shake to make sure everything's mixed up, and you can put it in your airbrush it straight from the bottle (in fact, the flip-top bottle will let you squeeze it out like a dropper).

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #69033, posted on 01-12-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Quote
      NX28388 :
      Quote
      Tango-Bravo :
      1) Does Vallejo require thinning for airbrush application?



      Vallejo metallics are ready to airbrush from the container. Just give the bottle a good 15-20 second shake to make sure everything's mixed up, and you can put it in your airbrush it straight from the bottle (in fact, the flip-top bottle will let you squeeze it out like a dropper).

      Jodie Peeler



      Nice! Advantage: Vallejo...don't know (or want to know) how much Alclad II I've lost to the side of the bottle when pouring into my airbrush cup.

      Todd
      IWA

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      Post #69036, posted on 01-12-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Todd,

      There are several options available for transferring your Alclad without spilling any. Pipettes and eye droppers would be great if you use a color cup or gravity feed airbrush. Not sure how they would hold up to the lacquer base of Alclad, but Hobby Lobby has several plastic paint bottles that have the single drop capability that the Vallejo provides. If you're using a siphon feed airbrush, Alclad has siphon lids that will fit right on the Alclad bottles.

      Gene

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      Post #69037, posted on 01-12-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      On transfer pipettes, you can buy them inexpensively and in bulk through Amazon or other online retailers. Every few months I'll order a box of 500 of the 3 ml pipettes for paint and thinner use. I've used them with Alclad and lacquer thinner and they work fine, and I've also used them to more precisely measure out resin Part A and Part B for small casting jobs.

      I haven't tried any of the paint bottles Gene talked about, but they are a possibility if they'll hold up to a lacquer base.

      Jodie Peeler

      In 1924 Wien was Alaska's first airline. In 1980 it still is.

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      Post #69065, posted on 01-14-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Hello Todd,

      I my experiment, I let the basecoats dry overnight and then gave each metal color about an hour and a half to dry. The Alclad Black Basecoat ALC 305 directions indicate overnight while the Vallejo Surface Primer 73.602 says 12 hours. The Alclad Metals do not indicate a drying time, but I think it is fast (my guess would be 30 minutes or so) while the Vallejo Metals dry in 5 minutes.

      It is noteworthy that some of the Alclad colors indicate that decal setting solutions are not to be used and I have confirmed this myself!

      As far as the Airframe Aluminum, I would have to experiment further to see if something comes close. My guess would be Vallejo Aluminum but here are a couple of links to compare:

      For Vallejo:
      http://www.scalemodeladdict.com/SMF/index.php?topic=12668.0

      And for Alclad I:
      http://alclad2.com/finishes/high-shine/

      I hope that helps somewhat...

      Cheers,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
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      Post #69066, posted on 01-15-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      With regards to my comments the other nigght about using plastic bottles with Alclad; I sent an email to Alclad Friday night asking about the compatability, and their reply said that most plastic bottles would soften or melt from the lacquer thinner.

      Gene
      MOB

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      Post #69072, posted on 01-16-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      I have done a bit of further experimentation with basecoats and Model Master Metalizers and the results were surprising to me.



      These three fuselages were given a basecoat. On top Vallejo Black Surface Primer 73-602, while the middle was Tamiya TS-14 Gloss Black Lacquer, and the bottom was Alclad II ALC-305 Black Basecoat. The colors applied on each fuselage (from nose to tail) were Vallejo Metal Color Chrome 77.707, Model Master Aluminum Plate Buffing Metalizer 1401, and Model Master Steel Non-Buffing Metalizer 1420. As before, all of the base coats were allowed to dry over night.

      I did not have high hopes for the Vallejo basecoat and MM Aluminum Plate because of the non-glassy surface of the base coat. Surprisingly, this yielded one of the best finishes (after a very light buffing) in my opinion. I still found the Vallejo Chrome to be slightly shinier when used with the Vallejo or Alclad II basecoats.



      The worst was also a surprise, which involved the Tamiya basecoat and the Vallejo Chrome, which did not react well and was very splotchy.



      All did well under a coat of Future, with the exception of the Tamiya Basecoat/Vallejo Chrome combo, which never did correct itself. After the Future coat, the ever important masking tape test was conducted. No lifting occurred from any of these nine combinations.



      Gold Colors

      Next, as I am wanting to build a Continental (Saul Bass) DC-10 in the near future, I also experimented with two gold colors. Using Model Master Primer as a base, I used Model Master Gold 1744 on the nose section and Tamiya Gold Leaf X-12 on the tail section. As you can see, these are very different shades of gold (as were a lot of real life COA tails which showed a lot of variation from airplane to airplane, and sometimes panel to panel). At first, I liked the Model Master Gold better, mostly because it already had some sheen to it, although I think it is a bit too close to a copper color.



      The Tamiya Good Leaf was a bit of a matte finish, but after a coat of future it produced a very nice, shiny finish which I think is more representative of the COA paint scheme. My only complaint is that the Tamiya Gold Leaf has a slightly more granular appearance which might not be as scale as the finer finish of the Model Master product. All in all, I plan to use the Tamiya Gold Leaf with Future on my -10 because I think the color is much closer to the actual aircraft and it takes well to the Future clear coat.





      Unfortunately, I still do not have the Vallejo Aluminum to compare to Alclad Airframe Aluminum but hopefully, in the near future I will...

      Cheers,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
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      Post #69073, posted on 01-16-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      One more update...

      Once the Future had dried on the gold fuselage, I conducted a masking tape test. The Tamiya Gold Leaf X-12/Future had no issues, but the Model Master Gold/Future was marred by the Tamiya Tape leading me to believe that the Tamiya X-12 is a bit more durable or at least cures faster.



      Cheers,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
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      Post #69074, posted on 01-16-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Dan..I'm surprised at your result using Tamiya TS-14 as a basecoat. Could it be more due
      to the Vallejo paint? I use TS-14 and occasionally their semi-gloss black as a basecoat
      for Alclad II paints. Have never experienced your issue.

      Alan Aronoff
      CYUL

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      Post #69076, posted on 01-17-2018 GMT-5 hours    
      Hello Alan,

      I must admit that I am surprised at that too! I will try it again to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

      I did see in the latest Model Aircraft edition that one model (a Yak-28P...which is also only short list, BTW) was done very well with UMP Black Primer and Vallejo Metal Colors as well, but I still haven't had a chance to try that combination.

      Cheers,

      Dan

      Dan Dornseif
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